From Zero A Conversation with Mike Shinoda and Emily Armstrong

Creating something new takes time, patience, and a willingness to experiment before finding the magic that clicks.

This is Mike Shinoda from Linkin Park. Just a few weeks before our big reveal, our new singer, Emily Armstrong, and I sat down to discuss what life had been like for both of us while trying to keep Linkin Park's return a secret. We also talked about Emily joining the band and the creative process behind our new album, From Zero. Now you can hear that conversation for yourself. Enjoy, follow, rate, and review From Zero: A Conversation with Mike Shinoda and Emily Armstrong, now available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

We just finished the record—holy [expletive], it's done! It's mastered, and it’s 32 minutes long. It encapsulates so many years of evolution and work, where we figured things out and distilled it into a half hour. You guys, I came in later. Even though I joined in 2019, it felt like the process had been ongoing. When you came in, it was almost like starting with a blank canvas. We sketched something, erased it, sketched again, and repeated that process for a long time. Eventually, we started to identify parts that were good, and that’s when you showed up. We began inviting you in, and you started singing on things. Everyone went, "Yo, that’s amazing! What is that?"

It wasn't immediately clear what the first things you sang on were, but I remember Unshatter was one of the early ones. That was, I think, the first one. In 2019, we also did Vertigo and a couple of other demos that didn’t make it onto this record, but they were really good experiments. I remember creating a more mellow track with you that I really liked because it revealed a lot about your melodic singing style. It was just the two of us writing, and I realized, "Oh, she’s really good with melody; she’s very versatile." That impression stuck with me.

After that, I didn’t see you for a while. I told you at the time that this whole process would be very slow. Nobody was ready to do anything yet. It felt like there was an element of discomfort when I mentioned it. I would bring it up to the band, and they seemed hesitant. Slowly, Joe was the first to reach out, suggesting we put some dates on the calendar to get together. I was okay with that, and then I mentioned it to Dave, who was also on board.

We made some initial tracks, and then we created more. There was a lot of work that went into establishing a foundation, but none of it was going to make the album. It was all necessary to get to the first step, which took years of effort. Finally, we reached a point where we could say, "Okay, now we’re going to start." I can totally see that now. You were in the mix at that step one, but you weren’t the lead singer yet; you were just singing on a couple of things.

I remember listening to a lot of the music and thinking, "Okay, it’s kind of all over the place." I was left wondering where it was all going. However, having been in a band for so long, I understood that there are so many different directions this could take. It was an exciting place to be in, even if I had that question mark lingering in my mind. We were experimenting a lot, and I didn’t have a full understanding of everything either. It was just a matter of letting the band figure it out.

Once we got closer and everyone got to know each other better, we became more comfortable. Everyone was really open about giving their opinions and throwing in ideas. This collaborative spirit developed slowly; it wasn’t an overnight change. It gradually became a more inclusive process, and that’s when the real magic started to happen.

=> 00:04:52

Creativity thrives in collaboration; when you let go and embrace the chaos, magic happens.

The experience of being in the studio was truly exhilarating. This is actually a very exciting place to be in, as we were experimenting a lot. Initially, I didn't have a full understanding of everything that was happening, so there wasn't much I could question. It felt like everyone was just figuring it out. The best thing you could do for a band is just to let them figure it out.

As we got closer and everyone became more comfortable with each other, everybody was really more open about giving their opinions and throwing in ideas. This openness started with Colin and gradually expanded to include everyone. It wasn't an overnight transformation; it was a slow process that developed over time. I remember when you weren't in the room, Dave and Joe would say to me, "That was really good; I loved the vibe of what we did the other day." Even if the song wasn't the best, it was really fun to create. I know that we are going to write a good song that is better than the one we just did, and I believe that it's going to happen because it's too fun.

When we started doing it, I realized that this wasn't just a coincidence; it wasn't a chore. It became clear that we could push it further, like when sparks start to become a fire instead of dying out. In a band, you try to create these moments, but often they fizzle out, which can be frustrating. However, when the right elements come together, it's like, "Oh, okay," and then it starts to grow. You begin to wonder how to manage this momentum, and it takes on a life of its own, which is incredibly exciting.

At that point, we were already pretty deep into the album when we created "Casualty." We didn't want to burden you or Colin with what was happening on our side, but Brad was a bit hesitant and resistant. We understood the baggage he was carrying, so we gently reassured him that the door is super open to you. We would love to have him on board because we benefit from his point of view. We had concerns about our dynamic with the three of us and Emily, as Colin is so good, and adding anyone might change that. We encouraged him to come in and see for himself, and I think he liked it.

One of the first things he mentioned was that he thought we could write something heavier—and we did with "Casualty." You contributed those intense lines in the chorus, particularly when you said, "Let me out." That moment was so powerful and intense. The way I initially wrote was very much in a live band setting, as Dead Sarah wrote in a room together. I thrive in that environment; it's where I come alive.

You have a unique ability to turn off your mental filter and let ideas flow freely. While you might feel embarrassed by it, you continue to express yourself, which is ideal. On the other hand, I approach writing differently. I’ve worked with various people who also have that spontaneous creativity, like John Green and Jake Tor. They can just let ideas pop out, and you do that in a wilder way. When it hits, there's nothing like it. You say or sing things that I would never logically do, and I love that. It feels like a missing component for me, as I don’t do that naturally.

=> 00:09:01

Creativity thrives in a safe space where wild ideas can take flight, and collaboration turns intuition into brilliance.

Much of what I have experienced has led me to develop a different version of my creative process. When I am in the room with someone, I notice that there are many different people I have known and worked with who excel in this area. John Green is really good at that, and Jake Tor is also really good at that. They can sit and let ideas just flow out, popping out one after another. You do that in a different way that is a little wilder, and when it hits, it's like, "Oh, there's nothing like it."

I appreciate that you say things or sing things that I would never logically do. I know, and I love that! It works really well because I felt like that was a missing component for me. I don’t do that naturally; I wouldn’t be able to live in that wild place without someone like you. You have this solid foundation, and everything revolves around what you put there. It’s so confident and good that it’s easy for me to get wild around that. I know that at some point, I can be wild and free because I trust that you guys are so good at providing structure.

It’s almost like we give you a safety net. We provide a structure, a safety net under you, and then you can go crazy. You may not even need that safety net at all; you might just be able to do your thing. But in the event that it starts going off the rails, we’ve got this—we’ve got you. It’s all good. I’ve found that in this process, I am becoming more and more comfortable. I think, "What about this melody?" and you respond with, "Yeah, that’s cool," then you finish it into something brilliant.

It’s funny you say that because I felt the same way about Colin too. There are times when I feel like we share a brain. Ever since I met him, I remember coming home from our first session in 2021 and telling my wife, "This guy I met has a real good chemistry with me." I don’t mean that on a friend level since I didn’t know him yet, but I definitely felt it on a creative level. We have similar skill sets and tastes, and in good comedy, there’s always a "yes, and." With him, it was always "yes, and." From the moment I met him, I knew he was someone I wanted to spend more time with and get to know because I felt we had a good thing going.

You and Colin learn a lot from each other, which is so great. That dynamic is refreshing. One thing that I think the guys appreciate is that you are younger than us by enough that your worldview and perspective on things, especially in music, is different. However, you are old enough to have gained experience. I have written with some young people in their early twenties who have the fresh perspective but lack the experience. They have only been doing it for a few years, and it shows.

You guys, on the other hand, have been around long enough to know what works well and what doesn’t. When I think about my experiences with things that didn’t work, I wish I had listened to my intuition more. I wish I had been able to say, "No," when something felt off. I relate to that. Looking back, I realize that I often went along with things that seemed a little weird, thinking, "I’ll just listen to this other person; maybe they know better." Even as I say it out loud, it sounds foolish.

=> 00:13:15

Trust your intuition; it knows better than anyone else.

You've experienced some things that work well and some things that don't. This is a common sentiment. When I think about the things that haven't worked, I wish I had just listened to my intuition more. I relate to that. When I look back, there were moments when I thought, "Oh, that seems a little weird," but I went along with it anyway. I listened to other people, thinking they might know better than I do about what I should be doing.

Even as I say it out loud, it sounds foolish, but that's what happens. You think, "Well, that person from the label or that producer has a different experience and success in another way." So, you question your own judgment and give a lot of trust to people. Unfortunately, I should be a lot more distrusting now, but I still find it hard to be.

However, I think you're smart. You're the right amount of trusting. You're discerning; you look at things carefully. There have been times when you've said, "It's your band; you guys know best. I'll go along with that." Yet, you still know when to say, "Hey, no disrespect, but I have an opinion." Every time I can think of when you've done that, it's been the right thing to say. You've always contributed valuable perspectives at the right moment.

I appreciate that. I try to be as objective as possible. If there's something I can say that could help with the bigger picture, I love to do it. It's something I've done for a while, even with friends. I often find myself saying, "I know this is going on right now, but let's look at the bigger picture." It helps me too.

Speaking of friends, don't you have a bunch of family and friends who still don't know? Have you told everybody at this point? Not everyone knows. There are friends I hang out with who still don’t know. I remember when we had that conversation, you said, "I'm afraid to hang out with my friends because I'm afraid I'm going to slip and say something about Linkin Park."

So, I’ve been avoiding that. I've been invited to a lot of things, like birthdays, but I talk myself out of going. I think about hanging out, having a couple of drinks, and then someone will ask what I'm doing. It feels weird to say, "Yeah, I'm just rehearsing." I don’t want to have fake conversations where I can't say everything. I'm so happy right now, and I don't want to pretend that I'm not.

Interestingly, I had a similar experience recently with a friend. I went to dinner with two guys, and my friend said, "Mike, you look great! What’s going on with you? You're in such a good mood!" He could sense something was happening, even though he didn't know anything. I finally decided to tell him, "I'm stoked right now. Things are so good!" It feels like we've been keeping a crazy secret for a really long time.

In conclusion, I have told some people, and it got to a point where they asked, "Who is she?

=> 00:17:30

Sometimes the best moments in life come from keeping a secret that fills you with excitement and inspiration.

Recently, I had a similar experience with a friend during dinner with two guys. My friend looked at me and said, "Mike, you look great dude! What is going on with you? You're in such a good mood. Everything must be happening right now." He could sense something was different about me, even though he didn't know the details. I felt like I had to share my excitement, but I warned him, "You can't tell anybody." I was genuinely stoked about what was happening in my life, and it felt like "things are so good."

This positive change has been building over the years, and it felt like we were keeping a crazy secret for a long time. I had mentioned it to a few people, and they often assumed it was about a relationship, which I found amusing. I explained, "It's not that; it's more about being inspired." My life felt like something significant was unfolding, but I couldn't share the details yet.

When friends would pry for information, I often found myself wanting to tell them but ultimately decided to hold back. I would slip up occasionally, saying things like, "Don't [__] to anybody," and then I would receive texts from random friends saying, "I just found out," leaving me to wonder how they learned about it.

Now, with the upcoming show, I find myself contemplating the gossip surrounding it. I told my management, "As long as it doesn't get out in a way that's definitive, if it's gossip, it's okay." I believe that if it's just speculation, it feels less serious. However, we can't control everything, especially since we are putting out a record, releasing songs, and eventually selling tickets to shows. Joe reassured me, "Don't worry about it; if it happens, it happens." He reminded me that we are so close to the finish line, and it’s incredible that we’ve made it this far.

In just over a week, we have the teaser coming out, and I could feel my heart rate increasing with anticipation. I mentioned, "Oh my God, yeah," and then noticed my heart rate actually went down. I realized it was because I was feeling so chill and focused on my breathing.

Reflecting on the past year, I recalled some surreal moments, particularly when we were in the studio writing. I remember one instance when we were working on a song—maybe "Breathing on Water." You called me over to talk, and it was you, Dave, Joe, and me in a room. You said, "We're going to be booking some shows next year, and we think you did a great job with the old stuff. We love what we've been doing, so we just want to continue this."

My reaction was amusing; I was trying to stay cool, as if you were just asking me to dinner. I thought, "Wow, this is amazing!" I wanted to match your level of calmness, so I responded, "Yeah, I can do that." I felt that if I had been overly enthusiastic, it might have come off as a bit cringe-worthy. So, I played it cool, even though inside I was thrilled about the opportunity.

=> 00:21:33

Sometimes, staying cool in the moment opens the door to incredible opportunities you never imagined.

We will be booking some shows next year, and we think you did a great job with the old stuff. We love what we've been doing, so we just want to continue this. I was just like, "Okay." Your reaction was really funny because it was like, "Oh, okay." It was not what I expected; you stayed so cool. It felt like we were asking you if you were busy next Thursday to go to dinner, and you were like, "Yeah, I can do that."

I was trying to be on your guys' level, considering how cool you were just asking me. That's amazing! You played it very cool. If I had been over the top, I would have felt like it just would have been a little cringe. So, I was just like, "Yeah, I mean, I will give you guys everything." You were really sweet in just being like, "How does Dead Sarah think about it?" That was the first thing you asked before we got to the topic of something that we think is going to be great. I was just like, "Yeah, I've already talked to them."

I respect the fact that a band is a band; you go through a lot together. I did want to make sure that you were at a place of transitional kind of moment. You said you were, and I felt very excited and nervous to talk to you about it because you could have easily said, "No, it's not a good fit." I was like, "Well, that would suck because I think you'd be amazing in the band." I didn't want to mess it up by presenting it wrong or whatever.

I mean, it was bold of you to say that because I never sang any of the old songs. You guys were like, "No, we think you could do it." Here's the thing about me: I think I've got a pretty good imagination when it comes to what a sound can be like. Absolutely! That's why when I first worked with you, I could already imagine you doing the stuff that we ended up doing. In fact, to your credit, you were better than I imagined. It was incredible for me. I was like, "Dude, I can't believe how good that is!" When we were writing different things or you were singing on things, even now while we're working out the live songs and the whole set, it's better than I thought it was going to be.

So, good job! We were saying, were there any other moments? When we said to you, "Hey, do you want to come on tour and sing for the band?" I know we said it in a weird way. It was like one show, and that was Rock in Rio, which was maybe something we wanted to do. But that didn't end up working out because they wanted to announce it earlier, and we couldn't do that. I was like, "Yeah, if you want me." You played it super cool.

Then you went home, and you weren't super cool, or you stayed super cool. We had to go straight back into recording right after that, and I was just sitting in the rehearsal room, trying to put it away and just continue writing. You can imagine me trying to separate that from what you guys just asked me to do and then continue to write. Once we left the studio, that's when I was just like, "Oh my God!" I was allowed to throw myself into this new opportunity. It felt like stepping into Disney World, full of magic and everything you could possibly imagine.

Did you feel that way in the car? As soon as you got in the car to drive home, you felt that way? Oh my God, yes! I was freaking out. I don't even remember getting home; I was floating for three days. I don't remember touching the ground! Did you talk to anybody?

I talked to one person. I call her Mama Shay. She's just always been so supportive. When did you call her? I called her that night, but we left late, so she was asleep. I texted her and said, "I have some crazy news for you." She was like, "No!" Then in the morning, she texted back.

=> 00:25:36

Embrace the chaos of change; it’s uncomfortable but necessary for growth.

As soon as you got in the car to drive home, you felt that way. Oh my God, yeah! I was just like freaking out. I was like, "I don't even remember getting home." I don't remember that at all; I was floating for three days. I felt like I didn't even touch the ground. Did you talk to anybody?

Well, I mean, I talked to one person. Who did you talk to? I talked to Mama Shay Shay. She's just always been like... who is that? We just became really good friends, and she has always been so supportive.

When did you call her? I called her that night, but we left late, so she was asleep. I just texted her and said, "I have some [] news for you." She replied, "No!" Then in the morning, she texted back, "No [] way!" She knew because she was someone I had kind of talked to about it. She was like, "Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God! [__] Call me as soon as you wake up!"

When I called her, she was just like, "I [__] knew it! I knew it!" But after that, I was just like, "Okay, I need to be careful in who I tell." I didn't know how to share the news; I just wanted to be in the moment and absolutely enjoy it. That high lasted for three days. Then I was like, "How do I tell my mom? How do I tell blah?" I was thinking about how I should tell them. I thought, "Yeah, don't even worry about it; just live it."

There were ways I thought it would be fun to tell them, like, "Oh, do I go get coffee? Do I do it over the phone?" I remember you said later that even you weren't comfortable saying, "I'm singing for the band; I'm the singer of the band." It took months before we had a conversation where you were avoiding using those words. I think I called you out and asked, "Why are you not saying that? You're our singer!" Your reaction was, "That sounds so weird." But I'm like, "But that's what it is!"

Absolutely! It was also about the fear of people finding out. In my head, I was thinking about what I was doing, and it was a mind shift from being a singer for 20 years in another band. It was like an identity change. That's a great point; it's really interesting because all of us had the same experience from different sides. Joe, Dave, Brad, and I experienced redefining Linkin Park in our brains, and we're still going through it.

There have been all kinds of moments where the reality of what's happening hits us. Like, "Oh [], we just did a photo shoot together! That's what we look like together in a really nice picture." We've never seen that before. Oh, we got on stage together at practice; that's what we look like! That's what it feels like! You and I jumped on that little box together yesterday and did part of that song together. That was the first time we've done that, and for a second, I thought, "Oh, this is so [] weird." But then I was like, "But it's great!" It was just uncomfortable because it was new.

We are going to have to get used to it. It was a wobbly thing too; the box was wobbly. I thought we were going to knock each other over! Were there any times when you were unsure about this or doubted the situation or yourself? Absolutely! There were moments of fear because it’s such a big change. There was a moment where I was just like, "Oh my God, oh my God!" It comes with all the great things. When change happens, you have to look at every aspect; it's not always easy.

There was a moment where I was panicking a little bit, just thinking, "Oh my God, how do people see me?" It wasn't about me being who I am; it was mostly about, "Oh my God, my Wikipedia page is going to change!" There would be more eyes on me, and it just kind of happened. It felt like a flood of these thoughts. It goes back to the identity thing, where it's like, "My identity is changing." Are you ready for it, Emily? Are you [__] up? Do you want to be this person?

=> 00:29:38

Embrace the fear of change; it's the key to growth as an artist. Don't let the fear of failure hold you back—take the leap and trust in your journey.

I was just like, oh my God, oh my God. It comes with all of the great things, you know? It's like when change happens, it's not necessarily always easy. You have to look at every aspect, right? There was a moment where I was just panicking a little bit, thinking, how do people see me? It's not about me being who I am, but it's mostly about the fact that it's like your Wikipedia page is going to change. Oh my God, there are going to be more eyes on me, and it just kind of happened. It was like a flood of these types of thoughts.

This situation goes back to the identity thing, where it's like my identity is changing. Are you ready for it, Emily? Are you prepared? Do you want to be this person? Are you able to fill these shoes? Are you able to be this person? At that time, I feel like as an artist, people back down. They think, I don't want that; I just want to be this artist. I just want to be that. In that moment, I was like, oh my God, that's the fear base that happens, which makes you hesitate. It's like the devil on your shoulder saying, don't grow as an artist, don't do that.

But I've learned to do the opposite of that fear thing because it's all good. If it's a high-risk, high-reward kind of situation, people often talk about it as an inspirational idea. However, it’s also high risk for failure too. It’s more embarrassing if it doesn’t work out, and that’s the part that’s actually scary. Exactly, I’m going to fail in front of the class, not just at home in my room. Everyone is going to see me fail.

You’ve got to have guts, man. I definitely appreciate the amount of courage it takes to say, yeah, I’m going to try; I’m going to take that on. I can do that. Like what Chester has done and what the fans love about it, I’m stepping into this role. There are moments of just being like, oh my God, Emily, what are you doing?

We’ve talked about the fact that not everyone is going to like everything we do. Every time Dead Sarah did anything, every time Linkin Park said anything, anytime any artist does anything, people will hate some part of it. As an artist, you have to be okay with that. It’s not for those people. By the way, some of them come around. Some of my favorite albums ever were ones that I hated when I first heard them. I know that after a few weeks or a month, I thought, wait a minute, this is actually brilliant. Some bands that I just despised turned out to be so good.

Sometimes, for me, it takes that initial resistance to appreciate the work. I understand that, but you’ve reinforced it with me many times, and this helps. This is the thing; it’s like the safety net. If I have those moments, I just communicate it, and it resolves so fast. That makes it less scary.

What’s so great about being in this group is that I’ve noticed how much you guys carry each other. It’s so important to me in any band. I know how crucial that is; you have to trust each other. On the other side, the trust and the helping each other out are vital. One of the things I see from you and Colin is that you guys have earned everybody’s trust consistently. You come to the table so strong.

For example, with the live show, Colin has become like a musical director in a sense. I’ll say, this is how I want to see these things flowing together; what do you think? He’ll throw ideas in, and the next thing I know, he’s built half of it in the computer and gone to all the techs saying, make sure you’re doing this. He goes to Alex, make sure you’re doing this. It’s so helpful, and you realize you can rely on each other. It’s a great feeling. Absolutely, Colin and I have had our own discussions throughout the whole process. We’ll sit and have our back-to-back conversations, discussing everything.

=> 00:33:50

Collaboration in creativity reveals hidden talents and deepens connections.

We've done that, like, just as an example that's fresh in my brain, with the live show. Colin has become like a musical director in a sense where he and I collaborate closely. I’ll express how I want to see these things flowing together, and he’ll throw in ideas. The next thing I know, he’s built half of it in the computer and gone to all the techs, saying, “Okay, hey, make sure you’re doing this,” and he goes to Alex, “Make sure you’re doing this.” Everything is so helpful, and it’s really great because you realize you can rely on each other. It’s a wonderful feeling.

Absolutely, Colin and I have had our own discussions throughout the whole process. We’ll sit back-to-back and brainstorm, figuring it out together. We got to rehearse, and he kind of takes the lead a little bit to get everybody on track. I told him, “No, dude, seriously, I heard some blah blah blah talking about it, and we really like how you’re doing that, so please keep going.” I’m trying to reinforce it in him because it’s a really good thing. I know that in a band, there always has to be that one person who takes charge, and you have to give them that encouragement: “You’re doing great, please keep going.” Colin has taken that to a place where I’m just like, “Holy [__], he’s really good at it!” I don’t even know half of what he’s doing, and being the drummer that he is, he’s so good at what he does and so humble about it.

Do you remember meeting Dave for the first time? It was kind of weird, right? I don’t know when you met Dave; it might have been at the studio. You came to Neptune or whatever to tune that. That was back in like 2019, and that’s where I put the whole band together. You met everybody at that point, right? Easy, done.

Next question: I was wondering, when did you get an impression about Dave? Do you remember thinking, “Oh, that guy, that’s what that guy does?” He definitely sounds like a band dad for sure. Yeah, Dave’s a band dad. I never thought about it that way; he’s very chill and laid-back. What’s crazy is how you and Colin, being new to the band, see things about the dynamic that are so spot-on. You guys are like, “Oh yeah, band dad.” Colin said something the other day that really struck me: “Yeah, like Brad is so good at the smallest details, and Joe is so good at the wildest, broadest things.” It’s like, here’s the biggest idea you could have, and here’s the smallest detail that you need to cover. I went, “Yeah, dude, that’s been in front of my face for 20 years, and I’ve never described it that way.”

These are discussions that Colin and I have all the time. It’s amazing because I’m not going to notice something like that about somebody I’ve known since college. I love to see the chemistry between people; it’s my favorite. I love being in a band because I love chemistry and getting along with people. Especially with Dave and Joe, they are just the funniest people—so crazy and so funny to me!

When Brad started hanging out more, you guys were just like, “Oh wow, he’s way funnier than I thought he was.” I remember both of you saying that. But he’s funny in ways that are unexpected. There are times when he’s trying to be funny, which is funny, but then there are moments when he’s not trying, and those parts are even funnier to me. You just have to look at him or someone else and think, “That guy does not know how weird that is.”

It used to be that a long time ago, you could point that out, and he’d be uncomfortable because he knows it’s weird. But now he’s embraced it. Now he’s super comfortable in his skin, and when you say, “Dude, that was weird what you just said,” he’s like, “Oh yeah,” and it gets way funnier because he’s in on the joke. We’re all super weird; it’s part of being artists.

You guys already know that I have to tell people when I’m super excited because I don’t just jump up and down. I have to say to someone, “Hey, I’m a 10 out of 10 excited right now, just FYI.” I have to say the words. Oh, I love that! But you know, there are times when you can tell I’m excited.

=> 00:38:00

Embrace your weirdness; it’s what makes you authentic and connects you to others.

That guy does not know how weird that is to say anything. He used to be uncomfortable when pointed out, because he knows it's weird, but now he has embraced it. Now he's super comfortable in his skin, and you're like, "Dude, that was weird what you just said." He's like, "Oh yeah," and it gets way funnier because he's in on the joke. Yep, we're all super weird; it's artists.

You guys already know that I have to tell people when I'm super excited because I don't just jump up and down. I have to say to somebody, "Hey, I'm a 10 out of 10 excited right now, just FYI." I have to say the words. Oh, I love that! There are times when you can tell I'm excited, but there are other times when you can't. You're like, "I'm analyzing." Your eyes will get big, and you'll do a slow turn, and that's when I know, "Okay, you're about to go back." Or you'll just smile from ear to ear, like, "Okay, Mike, what do you think, kid? What's going on?"

I have an idea or a thing that I like—a big idea that you have. What are you most excited about coming up? Like, what's in a week, in a month, in a year? Whatever comes to mind, what's shows? Traveling together—I love that! It's one of my favorite things. I like the studio, but I'm way more wanting to be out doing things.

One of the things that stuck out to me is that you wanted to get on the microphone so bad. It was like a racehorse that had the thing in front of them and just wanted to go. The second we let it go, you were off as fast as you could go, trying to get on the microphone and sing in the studio. I feel like that is such a valuable thing to have when it comes to being a touring band. You’ve got to love to get out there on the stage and do it.

Not everyone loves it for the same reasons; some people want to get up there because they want the attention, thinking it fills a void inside them. That's not your goal. You just want to do it. There's something exciting when I'm on stage; I'm not thinking about the words or what I'm saying or singing. I'm thinking about the connection. There's like an energy connection between me and whoever is there, and I'm way more focused on that. You've got the same thing happening.

As we practice and the new songs come together, it gets really exciting. I want to throw that out there; I want to go back and forth. It's a two-way energy exchange, and I love that. That's the best! I absolutely love it.

I think I'm the same. The other thing I'm excited for is for people to hear the whole record. When they hear the whole album, they will realize there's so much variety. Even though it's only ten songs, there's a lot of variety in terms of types of songs, energy, and emotions. There’s the loud and the quiet, and there are moments that feel very futuristic, alongside stuff that feels very classic—not just to our band but to the music I've always loved listening to.

When they hear that, they're going to experience all those emotions. It's very authentic to me, and that's very high on my list of what I like to accomplish in music. There are so many other things that this album just checks off for me. It's deep; there's so much to it. There's so much restraint that we put into getting the songs where they are and choosing this few songs. We could have put out more, but the idea of choosing this few to start felt really tough. It was a hard decision, but a very mature one. Any amount of years younger, and we wouldn't have been able to make that choice.

=> 00:42:36

Authenticity in music isn't just about the sound; it's about the choices you make and the emotions you convey. Less can be more when it comes to sharing your art.

I've always loved listening to music, and when I hear it, I feel all those emotions. It's very authentic to me. The album is very, very authentic, and that is high on my list of what I like to accomplish in music. There are so many other things that this album checks off for me. Like you mentioned, it's deep; there’s so much to it. We put a lot of restraint into getting the songs where they are and in choosing this few songs. We could have put out more songs, but the idea of starting with this limited selection felt like a tough but very mature decision.

Any amount of years younger, we wouldn’t have been able to say that. Five years ago, we would have wanted to put out all the songs, maybe even 30 songs. I can see that. I'm not a "put every song out" kind of person, but I am more of a "more songs, longer set" kind of person. I think Brad is more of a "fewer songs, shorter set" kind of person. I don’t just think that; I know that as a fact. Everyone else sits on different places on that spectrum. I may not even be the furthest over on that.

I am very excited for people to hear the music. You mentioned that the release is actually going to come sooner, possibly. We kept thinking it was going to be early next year, then it was going to be December, and now it’s going to be November. Here’s some new information for you: God bless! We might add those three songs into the set because we will be allowed to play them now that the music is coming out. That’s another thing I’m excited for—the merging of the two, where we get to play the new songs.

Not just "emptiness machine," but I really want to do "overflow." It’s such a cool song and a standout on the album. I think it will expand the album in a really cool way, and I believe it will do that live too. There’s always one song that takes the longest and requires the most tries to get right, and "overflow" was that one. We rewrote the track so many times and the chorus so many times. I’m sorry you had to sing it in so many different versions. I was like, “Yeah, we got a new version; sing this.”

Was there ever a moment with "overflow" where you thought, "I'm going to sing this, but you're not going to keep it; you're going to write a new chorus tomorrow?" I think when it was being written, I was just like, “Cool, I’m just going to go in there and sing it.” But as I was singing it, I thought, “Oh wait, this is really cool.” I felt it. Sometimes it doesn’t come together until I own it, you know? Not just hear it and think about it. The final version felt the most complete, and when I heard it back—once you did your magic to it—I was amazed. I don’t know how you do that, but when I heard it back, I thought, “Oh wow, how did you make me sound like that?”

I can make anybody sound good, even Emily. I’m really good at it—really good at producing vocals. I just can’t wait for people to hear how great it sounds. I have to say, with Chester, I had another human being that I could feed ideas to, and he could bring them to life like nobody else. It was amazing, and I didn’t know any better; I hadn’t had so much experience with anyone else. I thought, “Oh, this is just what it’s like to have a really good singer.” You could say, “Hey, what about this?” and they would try it, and then you both would high-five and say, “That’s great!”

When I started working with other people, I realized that it’s harder to find that. It’s unusual to find someone who is really good at singing and who I think I know how to write a vocal for. Then we get together, and while everyone is good at what they do, the thing we made is just fine—it’s like a B+. In the beginning, when anyone writes a song, you love it as you’re writing it. Then the next day or a couple of days later, you go, “Oh, it’s got a lot of problems; there’s something missing.” I don’t know what’s missing, but you start to realize over time...

=> 00:46:46

The magic happens when you let go and embrace the unknown; that's where true creativity lives.

When collaborating with others, I often find that it's harder to find that unusual spark. For instance, when I started working with different people, I realized that while everyone is good at what they do, the end result can sometimes feel just okay—like a B+. Initially, when writing a song, there’s that excitement; you love it as you create it. However, after a day or two, you start to notice the problems—something feels missing, but you can't quite put your finger on it.

Over time, I began to recognize that there is an unknown factor in the creative process. This element is something you can't quantify, measure, or plan—it either exists or it doesn't. This elusive quality is what we’ve been searching for, and now, I believe we’ve finally found it. When you discover it, there's nothing like it. I feel like I've been searching for this my entire life, and that’s what drives me in my work.

When I started singing and collaborating with you all, I felt a sense of excitement. I knew I could contribute a vocal idea, whether it was fully formed or just a rough concept, and that together we would get somewhere. That unknown factor seemed to be present, and I realized I would struggle if I didn’t tap into it. I can be quite driven and, at times, I can be hard on myself about it. I’ve learned that sometimes it’s necessary to rewrite and rework things. It’s not always about me; sometimes it’s about the part or the overall dynamic.

There are moments when you just need to take a step back, get a good night’s sleep, and return with fresh eyes. We’re all human, after all. To be honest, when I left rehearsal yesterday, I found myself crying in the car. It might sound silly, but it just hit me at a random moment. I was driving home, feeling overwhelmed with happiness. It was one of those moments where time stops, and everything clicks into place.

Yesterday's performance felt like the closest thing to a real show we’ve had. We worked hard, and the lights were on just like they would be during a performance. That little moment made me realize how truly happy I was. It’s often in my car, away from everyone, that I can process what has happened. In Los Angeles, it’s common to have these emotional moments while driving, especially when the sun goes down.

People from New York might not understand this; they’re on the subway, where such moments would be awkward. Imagine crying on the subway with people all around you—it’s a different vibe. But in my car, I had this realization that it is summer. I hadn’t fully acknowledged the time passing because I’ve been so immersed in the studio and rehearsals. It’s like being in a bubble, and suddenly, you step back and see the world around you again.

=> 00:51:09

Sometimes the most profound moments of happiness come when you least expect them, reminding you that it's not just about the destination, but the journey and the feelings you earn along the way.

Experiencing emotions on the subway can be overwhelming. You just start crying, and it happens with people all around you. It's as if nobody asks if you're okay because they see this all the time; they think, "Leave that girl alone, who knows what's going on." Crying on a subway is a common occurrence, and it can also happen in the car, especially in LA.

During one particular moment, I realized, "Oh my God, summer!" It struck me that it was summertime, and I hadn't even realized the time passing. For me, it's Lincoln Park time; I’ve been in the studio, in rehearsal, and I haven’t really participated in the typical summer activities like going on vacation. Yet, I found myself thinking, "I could be happier."

It’s real because I’ve been intentionally shutting out all the other things I would normally be doing. But I was looking at it in a way where I thought, "God, I don’t care that it’s summer." Nothing else matters; this is what makes me happy. It could be any time of the year, and I was just trying not to cry.

While driving home, I had a moment where I thought, "This is what I want summer to be." The weather was beautiful outside, and I had been inside all day, just jumping around, getting close to that live performance. I couldn’t be any happier, feeling like "I’m on my path." After parking my car, I went for a little walk to process everything.

I believe that being vulnerable and talking about those things is the best thing you can do. It’s so beautiful, and I relate to it so much. We all feel that way, and it’s surreal going through this process. Nobody else will understand fully, but we can give them a piece of it. It feels so good, and I want other people to feel it too.

Our band has been around for a long time, and you would think we’ve experienced everything, but that’s not the case at all. There have been so many moments in the last few years that are so new and so different in every way—good things, bad things, anxiety, and uncomfortable situations. Everything is constantly changing; some things are dramatically different while others are slightly different, and both versions can be just like wow.

The experience I had last night made everything feel so much greater. It’s like what a drug—having everything come together like that is so powerful. That’s what I live for: those moments where it just feels so right. You put yourself in so many situations in life and work hard, and sometimes it’s not about the destination. It’s more about those moments where you feel so free and so happy, where everything is exactly where it needs to be.

You can’t help but just see it and allow yourself to take it all in. You have to process it; I’ve earned this feeling. You did, and you totally did. You worked hard, and that effort is its own body of work. From just the last couple of years, the amount of effort has been significant. It’s weird because it’s not always just about showing up or being somewhere for a few minutes.

=> 00:55:50

Embrace the journey and the growth; sometimes the effort is just being honest with yourself and appreciating the moments you thought were lost.

Everything is exactly where it needs to be. You just can't help it; it's like you just have to allow yourself to take it all in. As you take all the experiences, you know, it's like you have to process it. I have earned this feeling, and you did too. You totally did. You worked hard, and that effort is not just about the time spent before we met; that is its own body of work and amount of effort.

From just the last couple of years, the amount of effort has been significant—from you and from everybody. I think everybody's effort is in weird versions too. It’s not always just about showing up or being somewhere for a few hours or clearing your schedule to do work or record something. Sometimes the effort is more introspective. For instance, I was noticing on my side that sometimes the effort is about dealing with frustration when someone says something that upsets me. My effort has to be about looking at myself and asking, "Are you being unreasonable? Is this an ego thing? Do you just think you're right and they're wrong?" I have to do the work of being honest about it or figuring out how to navigate those feelings.

That’s usually the work between me, Joe, Brad, and Dave. We have all this history together and know each other so well, like brothers who know where everyone’s buttons are. You can push them, but in our case, I don’t think anyone is doing it on purpose; it’s usually accidental. Someone will do something, and I’ll think, "Bro, that’s going to be..." I know exactly what he’s going to say or do.

One of the magical aspects of our dynamic, which you didn’t use this word but I heard it being like gratitude, is that you’re very present right now, living in the moment. For me, my version of that is that the dynamic among everyone in the band, especially those of us with the most history together, is so good. It’s really good. To me, it’s easily the best culture we’ve had. I’m not saying that as a knock on the old lineup; I’m specifically talking about the growth of Brad, Joe, Dave, and me. Everybody is in a really good place, and part of that is maybe gratitude for being able to do it again.

I thought of this concept the other day: what’s your favorite thing to do in the world? Now imagine you get that taken away. You can’t do it; it’s gone. Living in that for a while, and then coming back later and saying, "Okay, guess what? You can have it back," is a crazy feeling. That’s the part for us that we have the most gratitude for: it’s not gone; we get to do it again. That’s incredible.

I don’t mean to be selfish and take away from that because that’s so amazing, but I almost feel the same way. It’s like, what’s your version of it with Dead Sarah? We had success long ago and have been chasing it for so long. It got to a point where, like I told you, with our last album, we were going to do everything we possibly could. I didn’t know what was going to happen after that.

You tried everything; you worked really hard. I worked with other people and did a solo thing, but I realized that I wanted to be in a band. It always comes back to that for me. I really just love being in a band, and that’s what I want to do more than anything. I feel like that’s my position and what I’ve been working on for so long. I can’t imagine you doing anything else.

So, when this happened, I was like, "Oh my God!" You know what I mean? I get to do this again, but in a way that’s like my wildest dreams. Part of that is just that we’re believers; we’re discerning and picky as hell. I know we’re so picky, and that’s part of what makes this journey so special.

=> 01:00:22

Sometimes, the path to your dreams is filled with hard work and self-discovery, but when you finally embrace who you are and what you love, everything falls into place.

After that, you tried everything; you worked really hard. I worked with other people, and I was doing a solo thing, thinking, "What do I want to do?" I realized, "I want to be in a band." It always comes back to that; I really just love being in a band, and that's what I want to do more than anything. I feel like that's my position, and that's what I've been working on for so long.

I can't imagine you doing anything else, exactly. So, it was just like, "[__], like, and then this happened." I was like, "Oh my God!" You know what I mean? I get to do this again, but in a way that's like my wildest dreams. Part of it is that we are believers; we are discerning and "we're picky as [__]." I know we're so picky, and then we were like, "Yep, Emily's got this. You are the one."

That's another thing too, with the Panic thing; it goes with that same facet of me being like, "Did you ever have the scaries of like, what are you doing?" You see this happen a lot with other people, like, "Oh my God, this person got this role, this person got this." Imagine how they feel; that's amazing. I mean, I am usually like that, and I've seen people and been friends with those who have come from nothing to being something, or even getting a job as a singer. It's just something that's like, "Wow, they get a shot."

And I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm that person." You know what I mean? Never have I ever thought that would be the case for me. I do think a lot about the idea that we are giving you this platform. We’re giving you this thing, and there’s no amount of charity to it. There’s no, "Hey, try and do a good job." There’s none of that either; it’s only that "you have built up trust with us." We know we can hand it to you, and you're going to do a great job.

I don’t have any reservations. By the way, even if there are mistakes along the way, even if things go off the rails, and even if it’s your fault—like, "Okay, we played the show, and an accident happened, or you forgot something." That’s fine; that’s okay because I’m 100% confident. The aggregate in the big picture is so much greater than the little things.

I couldn't go out there 99% confident. If I did, I would feel it; I would feel weird, like I was lying. I know that I’m not positive. I don’t like to fake [__]; it has to be very authentic. I wouldn’t have ever joined or done it if I didn’t feel like I could be fully authentic and who I am. I know that about you—you were coming in with, "Okay, am I going to be able to be what you need?"

You were right; you got to be you, and you guys literally gave that to me. You said, "We think you could do it." I was like, "Okay, cool." Just like that, it was the weirdest, and it was just like, "Okay, so this is okay." I was planning to go to Europe, and I thought, "It's fine, we don’t really need to do anything until January." I actually thought that was the best timing.

I was rooting for that, and it was great talking to you before you left because I was like, "She's going to need to process it." That’s exactly what I did. You did exactly that, and especially since you sent me all the demos too. I also thought there was a chance you’d come back from Europe and be like, "Hey, I thought about it." But it would be the best case if you came back and said it was a weird match.

You didn’t; you came back and said, "Let’s [__] go!" I was so excited, and then I was just like, "I got so much work to do." I started getting antsy, thinking, "Oh my God, Emily, you have so much to [__] do! You need to practice." That’s right when I got, "Colin, I need you! We’re going to practice together; let’s work this out."

He was just so good at it. Speaking of which, I’m supposed to go over to Colin’s. Oh yeah, I got to go. Wait, what’s he saying? [Laughter] Blabbing, you’re like, "You know what? I have to [__] deal with this."